Posts by free thought

12

Does one need to believe in the trinity to have salvation

by free thought in

quote; " if god were not a trinity we could not be saved the reason is simple.

by sinning against the king [ jesus ] we sin against the whole universe and the penalty is eternal damnation .

therefore, god the son came down in the form of jesus and bore the wrath of god the father.

free thought

Quote; " If God were not a TRINITY we could not be saved The reason is simple. By sinning against the King [ Jesus ] we sin against the whole universe and the penalty is eternal damnation . Therefore, God the Son came down in the form of Jesus and bore the wrath of God the father. But this could not be possible if God were a Trinity." ( Source U"TUBE Matt Slick CARM ) .

The above qoute is from a notable Pastor.I would be interested in your comments.Do you agree ?and if so, on what scripture do you cite as evidence?

Q: Does one need to believe in the trinity concept in order to have salvation. I am not talking about JW's but Unitarians as well.

10

Is there really an anointed class?

by free thought in

jw
friends

i am of the anointed but care not for the title as i believe that those having put on a christ-like personality can also be born again .i encourage those jws not to be swayed by peer pressure and heed gods calling.

the year book will very soon not mention the growth of the anointed since the generation change.. things jws have to consider>.

1* when the scriptures refer to " i have other sheep not of this foal" it may mean gentiles as well as jews of which the new covering of circumcision applied .. 2* the term little flock is similar to the term little book a phrase of commonality used in greek translations .. rutherford acting as veto, to the majority fds as in singular and not plural invented the two class system ,( read his book doors close in 1936 ) which i no doubt will be yet another of wts do not re-print list .. rutherford had an irion handed approach and was not liked among his very own peers i believe god used him only for his legal expertise ( espionage act 1918 vs. usa constitution ) but thats about it.

free thought

Flag bearer

I am an engineer and as such have to sort out many problems. I once came across a very odd problem that had been accruing and recurring for years. .When this happens all the data is collated and a complete new design system is employed

If one were to view WTS slimily as to there insistent problems one needs to trace the actual central fault mechanism. The WTS has for many years been plagued by a one man president veto, which was used to over-rule the majority including three thirds

Since 1980 Freddy Franz was the last to veto. Therefore in my mind the fault has been rectified and now the GB is acting according to what God had purposed. Yes it has taken a long time , but remember God has always given man a free choice .If by free choice man chooses to use grey areas of doctrine to control the masses , then so be it. God does warn us of not being to reliant on Nobles.

If Christians concentrate on being more self confident then they would be less reliant on Nobles. There needs to be a balanced view. The WTS FDS are our fine facilitators who encourage us to read our Bibles by outlining stories and principals contained in scripture. The Holy Spirit then takes over from that point HS not MAN is our instructor and teacher.” That little voice inside ones head whispering> “How can I apply this and that to my Christian living ”!

Its sad that many find security in obeying rules but can not think a nice thought. Its sad that some can conger up a great discord but cant conjure up a smile. JW is just a name that we can be identified by, but the real test as to ones faith is by there fruitages.

16

Another encounter with JW at my door this morning.

by jam in

i posted an encounter with a elder a few months ago.. we had a lengthy conversation.

he knew i was once.

a elder, served where the need was great , etc.

free thought

*************I had them here during the week, apparantly I was down as a do not call, and they wanted to know if it was ok to call again, anyway they asked why i left & was it bcoz i had problems with other members, my reply was no it was on doctrine etc, like false prophecy re Jesus' return in 1870s bigA coming in 1914, 15, 18, 24 & 75 and so on, their reply was those things were never said, anyways they couldn't get out quick enough, so now I'm most likely back on the do not call list. Mixed feelings about that I do like to converse with them at the door, but some times they really piss me off***********************************

Honesty is the best approach.

I am always up-front with the doors .I think it should be mandatory for everyone to study the Proclaimers book and come to grips with past mistakes. Forget about the light gets brighter stuff, Some die-hard or un baptized publishers can be a little sanctimonious at times.. Or it may be that they are ignorant or that they don’t like to admit that they once followed blindly false teachings .

No not put all your trust in Nobles .

Jehovah is the custodian of my soul not WTS.

48

Jesus Was but not IS Michael!

by free thought in

jw
friends

to honor the son is to honor the father.. i am a practicing jw who i believe is of the heavenly calling.

this post is not to criticize wts but to open honest discussion among mature followers of christ.. there has been much controversy around the wts doctrine regarding the arch angel michael.

as many are aware, wts believe that jesus in his pre-human existence was michael , gods first born.

free thought

*************There seems to be confusion between a son of God and the Son of Man. I was confused. The Witnesses never made a distinction that I can remember.**************

Who was the forth person?

KJV> Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

NIV >He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

Barnes notes>

The "fourth" personage now so mysteriously added to their number, it is evident, assumed the appearance of a "man," and not the appearance of a celestial being, though it was the aspect of a man so noble and majestic that he deserved to be called a son of God.

Barnes has gone with the NIV version saying that the fourth personage was in human appearance but not angelic .I would be interested in hearing Barnes explanation as to the King James version.

Trinity theory states that Christ was mentioned several times in the OT. and that the title “Son of God “ is exclusive to Christ only. So one could conclude that Daniel saw God! But how can this be! No one can see God.

JW’s believe that the fourth personage was that of an angel most likely Michael arch angel"Son of God "as Christ Jesus.

If one is to find common ground, then one could agree that the forth identity, personage or otherwise was Gods Glory personified.

Like Daniel ,Isaiah saw Gods glory.

21

The FIVE exciting Watchtower Presidential Eras

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

charles t. russell era (1879-1916)date: late 1800's.

okay, july 1879 if you want to be picky.. current religious views: many apocalyptic leanings, prompting the origin of several major eclectic religious groups claiming that god had rejected the mainstream christian churches for their apostasy in the fourth century, and that he has now chosen a new prophet, a spokesman, a faithful messenger to re-educate the world as to the truths of the bible, long-lost and unattainable by any normal human being.

to gain eternal life, man must listen to the new gospel of this messenger(s).. this century sees the birth of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints (mormons), adventism and its various offshoots (including jehovah's witnesses), christian science, christadelphians and other smaller groups, each one claiming a modern-day prophet and new or once-forgotten revelations to the populace, many of whom we find shopping for new ideas, yet disenchanted with the churches.. scenario: a young man who can't understand theology from a historical development point of view begins to feel that he is the "seventh messenger" (rev.

free thought

***********Let's make Prohibition our enemy, refuse to fight for our country, and court Hitler's favor.****************

All churches not just the JW’s including Lutheran curried favor to Hitler 1933 as he was a confessed born again Christian .Baptist supported his anti-Semitism and communistic sentiments. Even the POPE waved the swastctiza and hailed there chancellor. Of coarse Hitler rejected JW’s right from the start but still favored other religions. Hitler was a confessed atheist, but only when he had the upper hand.

Rutherford was no doubt a loose canon ;but one must be grateful as to a legal precedent. which freed WTS from there bondages. The espionage act 1918 was designed to gag war protestors. Rutherford won on the grounds of the 1 st , 5 th and sixth amendments of the constitution. The government had to concede giving back all properties once seized. .....Jesus was also accused of espionage !

Note> USA is trying to gag Wikileaks on the same legality. .

Franz beef was not with Jehovah but with man. This is why he did not turn triniterian.The WTS had it coming, Freddy yet another proclaimed phrophet like man was used by Satan to discredit his name.

The truth is like a lump of gold buried hidden under the ground. First one must find the location by studying a map - the Bible. Then when near its location one must go about digging and sifting out all the dirt.

Because of mans imperfections Satan diverts attention away from the truth. Do not trust in Nobles !Would you trust in a metal detector? I new a man who did When looking for gold he came across a very strong signal. When digging he found it was just a tin can

But alas! False alarm! How so! he did not think that if he had dug a little further he would have found the gold hidden under the tin can.

10

Is there really an anointed class?

by free thought in

jw
friends

i am of the anointed but care not for the title as i believe that those having put on a christ-like personality can also be born again .i encourage those jws not to be swayed by peer pressure and heed gods calling.

the year book will very soon not mention the growth of the anointed since the generation change.. things jws have to consider>.

1* when the scriptures refer to " i have other sheep not of this foal" it may mean gentiles as well as jews of which the new covering of circumcision applied .. 2* the term little flock is similar to the term little book a phrase of commonality used in greek translations .. rutherford acting as veto, to the majority fds as in singular and not plural invented the two class system ,( read his book doors close in 1936 ) which i no doubt will be yet another of wts do not re-print list .. rutherford had an irion handed approach and was not liked among his very own peers i believe god used him only for his legal expertise ( espionage act 1918 vs. usa constitution ) but thats about it.

free thought

I am of the anointed but care not for the title as I believe that those having put on a Christ-like personality can also be “ Born again” .I encourage those JW’s not to be swayed by peer pressure and heed Gods calling. The year book will very soon not mention the growth of the anointed since the generation change.

Things JW’s have to consider>

1* When the scriptures refer to " I have other sheep not of this foal" It may mean Gentiles as well as Jews of which the new covering of circumcision applied .

2* The term “little flock” is similar to the term “ Little book” a phrase of commonality used in Greek translations .

Rutherford acting as veto, to the majority FDS as in singular and not plural invented the two class system ,( read his book “ Doors close in 1936 ”) which I no doubt will be yet another of WTS do not re-print list .

Rutherford had an Irion handed approach and was not liked among his very own peers I believe God used him only for his legal expertise ( espionage act 1918 vs. USA constitution ) but that’s about it. The rest was from his own manipulating .But the same could also be said regarding the great Bible commissioned by King Henry VIII. It seems that God uses channels not necessarily approved by our standards as in Godly devotion. Sorry my brother JW’s , but this is the truth which you need to come to grips with. But you don’t have to leave the WTS. Just study the Proclaimers “tell all”! book and move on knowing not to put your full trust in Nobles but in God . Indoctrination ( 1914- 1444.000 ) can be divisive and can be used by Satan to divert our attention away from the true meaning as being a JW , which is to serve and promote the one true God , the one formula baptism, no hell fire, and the preaching if the good news .Just as Arian taught from the early beginning of Christianity.

Although the WTS systematical reminds us today that FDS are just ordinary people who make mistakes, it can be read otherwise to the less discerning.

Rutherford’s mind-set is still very active by die-hard elders who ,only if challenged make admission that the anointed are not a privileged ( Gods favorite ) class above sheep -like .

Elders mind-set is likened to elasticized self memory wire , that can be shaped and re-shaped, but eventually it goes back to its original position. My reservations as to the anointed are from this simple thought: :

Why should God arrange a class of special people who will never die, never again sin, hence no free will. Were will be the sacrifice and obedience-the very core to worship?

Yes Angels can fall from grace, Satan a fine example!- why then not the anointed.? WTS argue that because they have proven themselves on earth , they will never again sin. This places a superior class as Pope like. Elevating such high standards discourages those JW’s who feel they have a heavenly calling Furthermore, the very idea that angels can never sin -no free will- total obedience is the very core to Muslim and christadelphian teaching. Like angels, Gods ruling class can indeed fall from grace.

Yes my brothers I am a reformist who believes the WTS is still holding on to many teachings that are nor scripturally sound .I was aware many years before the generation change that Rutherford’s teaching was not sound and I was cautioned for believing so.

I still believe that God has endorsed WTS as a flag bearer to is name and that they are the closes to the truth of Arianism.

48

Jesus Was but not IS Michael!

by free thought in

jw
friends

to honor the son is to honor the father.. i am a practicing jw who i believe is of the heavenly calling.

this post is not to criticize wts but to open honest discussion among mature followers of christ.. there has been much controversy around the wts doctrine regarding the arch angel michael.

as many are aware, wts believe that jesus in his pre-human existence was michael , gods first born.

free thought

Q1 If Jesus was an angel prior to coming to earth, what became of him? Did he cease to exist?

A: Christ said “ Receive my spirit” Meaning his personal life-force went back to the father and his corrupted flesh was disposed and replaced by a glorified body ( Flesh and bones , void of blood! ) Christ life force was integrated back with his spiritual linage that being Michael and his creator God.

There was only one Christ, the word- Logos. When Christ was on earth in his Human form, the personal life-force of Michael no longer existed as a separate entity. Michael's presents only exsisted via his ( spiritual ) DNA integrated into Christ life-force.

Similar, when one has a new born it has a unique personality made up from inherited DNA That DNA would not be regarded as an incarnation of another life-force but a contributory, having traits which can influence.

Christ had a separate life-force his previous existence as Michael was not an incarnation of a life force but a transfer of inherited traits of which contained all Gods attributes.

NB The Voice of an arch-angel does not mean that Christ was Michael !! ,but can demonstrate an inherited trait.

Likewise, the trumpet of God does not mean it was God.

48

Jesus Was but not IS Michael!

by free thought in

jw
friends

to honor the son is to honor the father.. i am a practicing jw who i believe is of the heavenly calling.

this post is not to criticize wts but to open honest discussion among mature followers of christ.. there has been much controversy around the wts doctrine regarding the arch angel michael.

as many are aware, wts believe that jesus in his pre-human existence was michael , gods first born.

free thought

To honor the Son is to Honor the father.

I am a practicing JW who I believe is of the heavenly calling. This post is not to criticize WTS but to open honest discussion among mature followers of Christ.
There has been much controversy around the WTS doctrine regarding the arch angel Michael. As many are aware, WTS believe that Jesus in his pre-human existence was Michael , Gods first born. But there has been some confusion among JW’s rumored that Jesus in his human form is still Michael.! This gives fuel for JW antagonist to claim that WTS Christ is not the same Jesus as was crucified and resurrected.
Could it be new light as to clarification that Christ was not in any shape or form Michael incarnate. Lets study this together. For those having an insight book, please refer to Jesus Christ sub heading His Baptism!( page 59) note:
“Gods spirit poured out upon Jesus doubles illuminated his mind on many points .....how Jesus recalled his pre-human existence and the things he had heard from his father do as well from the glory that he himself has enjoyed in the heavens It MAY WELL BE that the memory of these things was restored to him at the time of his baptism ands anointing Jesus anointing with Holy Spirit appointed and commissioned him to carry out his ministry of preaching and teaching.
Please note: The phrase> May well be! is typical WTS language as to imply, but is not a fact.! Many JW’s need to discern this type of writing. Why so? The above explanation as you now is in the mind-set of JW’s as factual .
But is it?
Lets take a look at a recent WT April 2010 Titled> “The Man who changed the World” sub heading “What Jesus Taught about Himself”
The Son of God > Jehovah has many angelic sons. Jesus however is unique. He referred to himself as “ the only-begotten Son of God.”( John 3:18) That expression means that Jesus is the sole direct creation of God .The only begotten is the one through whom God created all things Colossians 1:16.
The Son of man” Jesus used this expression more than any other to refer to himself ( Mathew 8:20) He thus showed that he was neither a materialized angel nor an incarnation Rather, he was fully human .By his holy spirit, God transferred his Son’s life from heaven to earth, causing conception in the womb of the virgin Mary. As a result Jesus was born as a perfect sinless human .
The insight book states>
“Gods spirit poured out upon Jesus doubles illuminated his mind on many points .....how Jesus recalled his pre-human existence.
Please note; At this stage it could be plausible to recall past experiences, as did inspired writers ; but to say that Christ recollection was a restoration, is implying that Jesus was Michael in his human existence.
The Franklin dictionary states incarnation as > The union of divine and human nature
Chrisidom believe that Christ embodiment is an incarnation of God. We JW’s need to be aware that we may be guilty of that same precedent How? Elders have always implied that Jesus IS Michael instead of Jesus WAS Michael. There is a vast difference if one is to honor Gods Son and to acknowledge his new title as our raining King!
JW’s say that Michael is just another name for Jesus. This may be so, but there is only one TITLE- TheLord Jesus Christ .To refer to Christ in anyway as Michael is demeaning that TITLE, like calling a doctor by his first name. Like in all professions titles have to be earned and then respected .
I think there is confusion as in Johns writing in reference to the battle between Michael and the dragon. John was interpreting picture image hence, the angel which come to his understanding was Michael, he did not fully appreciate that it was Christ Jesus in his new authoritive title. That is of course if one is to take Rutherford’s teachings as factual.?
It is obvious by the WT article that the brothers have picked up on a very important precedent Christ former title was Michael. His pre-existence was from his spiritual ancestral heritage. His life force was his very own including his mind - personal thoughts His pre-existence was recalled by his parents teachings and from his study of the torah, notany heavenly experience as it was implied in the insight book. . If Christ was to have incarnated any of Michaels memory he would have been given advantage to overcome his temptations thus would not set a human perspective as to his modeling for our benefit.
Yes the heavens did open up and God did speak of his approval as to his Sons witness in baptism. The Holy Spirit symbolizes anointing. Not a history lesson.
This is a typical example of new light , which will take many years before it is set in the mind -set of JW’s.
Blessings Free thought.